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Up a Lot, Down a Lot and Recognizing A Flaw

Up a Lot: Broke 500#

Friday’s workout was very good.

Warm Up
5x Power Snatch + Overhead Squat @ 70#
4x Chin Ups @ BW
5x Power Snatch + Overhead Squat @ 75#
4x Chin Ups @ BW
5x Power Snatch + Overhead Squat @ 80#
4x Chin Ups @ BW
1x Power Snatch + Overhead Squat @ 85#
4x Chin Ups @ BW
1x Power Snatch + Overhead Squat @ 90#
4x Chin Ups @ BW
1x Power Snatch + Overhead Squat @ 95#
4x Chin Ups @ BW
1x Power Snatch + Overhead Squat @ 100#
4x Chin Ups @ BW
1x Power Snatch + Overhead Squat @ 105#
4x Chin Ups @ BW
1x Power Snatch + Overhead Squat @ 110#
4x Chin Ups @ BW
Deadlifts
3x @ 265#
3x @ 300#
15x @ 340#!!
5x Assistance Circuit
6x Toes-to-Fingers
25x Swings @ 24kg KB

15x @ 340# is a HUGE PR; a theoretical 1RM of 510#. I don’t think I could actually pull 500# off the floor, but it’s nice to see that number. HUGE.

Saturday

Saturday morning my wife and I dropped the kids off at Grandma and Grandpa’s house and went on a date. Our date was a calm, quiet, leisurely breakfast and conversation. After eating, we just sat and drank coffee and talked - not really about anything important even. Just talked. Peacefully.

After that, we went to a local park, laid down on a quilt in the grass, watched the clouds and started thinking about for whom we are going to buy Christmas gifts this year.

Our date was breakfast and making Christmas lists. We must be getting old. And it is great.

Down A Lot: Monday Workout

Warm Up
5x Clean & Press @ 105#
4x Chin Ups @ BW
5x Clean & Press @ 110#
4x Chin Ups @ BW
5x Clean & Press @ 115#
4x Chin Ups @ BW
1x Clean & Press @ 120#
4x Chin Ups @ BW
1x Clean & Press @ 125#
4x Chin Ups @ BW
1x Clean & Press @ 130#
4x Chin Ups @ BW
1x Clean & Press @ 135#
4x Chin Ups @ BW
1x Clean & Press @ 140#
4x Chin Ups @ BW
1x Clean & Press @ 145#
4x Chin Ups @ BW
Bench Press
3x @ 160#
3x @ 180#
7x @ 205#
5x Assistance Circuit
5x Chin Ups @ BW
10x Dips @ BW+30#

That’s a theoretical 1RM of 253# - a huge decrease from my previous 292#. Which brings me to what I think is a flaw.

Flaw

I’ve been following Jim Wendler’s 5-3-1 program for a few weeks. A key part of the program is an equation to measure growth. You plug in reps and weight, the equation spits out a Theoretical 1RM. You can, so the theory goes, compare 8x @ 205# and 5x @ 225#. Which is more work? Which is ‘better’, ’stronger’? Use the equation.

Here’s the problem. I think Jim’s equation falls apart for me at sufficiently high reps. I don’t know exactly what it means to be sufficiently high - maybe > 10? Regardless, as reps get higher, quality of the equation (for me) diminishes.

Maybe I have higher strength-endurance / strength than most aging powerlifters (at whom the program is aimed). Maybe I’m doing something wrong. Maybe the equation simply sucks for everybody at high reps. I don’t know.

What I do know is that it’s unlikely I could actually pull anything close to 510# from the floor and it’s unlikely my bench 1RM dropped from almost 300# to 250# in a couple weeks.

I know the Theoretical 1RM isn’t supposed to be treated as an actual 1RM, but it has to be consistantly representative of an actual 1RM to be used as a basis for comparison - to measure growth. Currently at sufficiently high reps, it fails in that endeavor.

I don’t think the program is bad. I actually think it’s very solid. I just the equation needs to be a bit more sophisticated than it is.

Over the next 8 - 10 weeks I’m going to carefully watch what happens to my Theoretical 1RM as the weights increase and the reps decrease. Once I have a nice data set, I’m going to put my hand to find equations that better match my strength / strengh-endurance curve. (Fair warning to my really smart math friends…)

8 Comments

  1. Jesse wrote:

    Ha hah…

    As I was reading this I was like “I totally could do some parameter estimation for this.”

    Tuesday, August 25, 2009 at 10:28 am | Permalink
  2. Jesse wrote:

    Also,

    I may give 5/3/1 a run this winter. If so, I can generate some data too.

    Tuesday, August 25, 2009 at 10:29 am | Permalink
  3. J.B. wrote:

    If you read the Q & A on the eliteFTS site, Wendler admits that the equation deteriorates at >10 reps. be interesting to see if maybe there isn’t a better mousetrap out there.

    Tuesday, August 25, 2009 at 10:43 am | Permalink
  4. ces wrote:

    Jesse,
    I’ll finish this round in two and a half more weeks, then one more round after that. That will give me 9 data points for each of the four lifts. That’s not a ton, but should allow for a starting point.

    JB,
    I didn’t read that, but I’m not surprised others have noticed. And maybe it doesn’t really matter.
    Maybe these beginning rounds are simply what they are, but after adding some weight everything will stay in the 2-10 rep range (where the equation seems to work much better).

    You wanna throw your numbers into the mix too and see what comes out?

    Tuesday, August 25, 2009 at 12:10 pm | Permalink
  5. J.B. wrote:

    I have data from 4 (soon to start number 5) and of course it’s all in happy little spreadsheets that I’ll happily share.

    http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=98120&tid=164

    It’s not really surprising that a formula that is fairly accurate at going from a 3rm to a 1rm would be inaccurate for a +10rm to a 1.

    Tuesday, August 25, 2009 at 2:39 pm | Permalink
  6. Jesse wrote:

    We could probably bang this out fairly well in MS Excel.

    Though if you guys want a highly sophisticated nonlinear model with confidence intervals, I’ll happily work in MatLAB.

    Do both of you feel the 5/3/1 program is worthwhile?

    Wednesday, August 26, 2009 at 3:49 pm | Permalink
  7. J.B. wrote:

    I think it is well worthwhile for 2 reasons:
    1) the ‘because the program says so’ factor. Don’t feel like taking a deload week even thought you know you need to? too bad the program says so. Don’t feel like squatting today, rather deadlift instead? tough the program says so..
    2) for all it’s flaws having a formula that marks progress is very helpful.

    Thursday, August 27, 2009 at 9:06 am | Permalink
  8. Jesse wrote:

    Chris, I logged last night’s park workout at the old blog. Last night’s workout was pure gold.

    I’ll try to keep semi-regular about updating.

    Friday, August 28, 2009 at 7:11 am | Permalink

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